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Poster: paulypecker Date: Nov 30, 2008 6:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Early Show/Late Show

Any info. about what exactly the difference is between "Early" and "Late" shows? Was an early show played in the afternoon with late show to follow later in the day/night? What was the usual time frame for this scenario? Was it about making more dough in the course of a day? Were there other acts that may have performed in between or any special reasons for the timing of these shows?-Thanks-

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Dec 1, 2008 5:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Hey pecker d00d,

You read and decide.
http://www.thebear.org/albums.html#anchor753229

HTH
peace,
Pigpen81

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Poster: paulypecker Date: Dec 1, 2008 6:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Lots of great stuff here.Thanks. Nice historical info. Owsley's clarifications on the EARLY/LATE SHOW topic was quite interesting. So they're actually "marching bears" and not really "dancing". This is neat trivia and an enjoyable link to learn from.Bill Graham-RIP-certainly was a good businessman. This is very helpful, and more than I expected in a reply. Thanks again Pig! I'll keep reading.

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Dec 1, 2008 7:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Glad that I could be of assistance, there's lots more out there floatin' around ya just gotta look for it. Once in awhile you get shown the light in the strangest of places if ya look at it right !
In addition to searching the web, these forums are a grate place to learn. I can see by the frequency of your post's/question's you have already figured that out. This is one of my favorite forums but there are others with much to offer as well.

peace PP man

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 1, 2008 6:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Late to this show...har, har.

Never attended one myself (was this primarily East Coast? Not at Fillmore West?), BUT those that did say that: from the aud's perspective, you had a ticket for an early or a late show. They cleared the venue between. From the band's perspective, you played ALL night...

Think of Jerry playing two diff sets with the DEAD and with NRPS...May 14, etc. Amazing.

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 1, 2008 6:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

hi wt we dig the heartbeats!!! at the matrix!!! smile 68!!@#

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 1, 2008 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

4 you!!! WT!! :) FROM THE EAST http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc26EFI1_nw

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 1, 2008 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

4 you!!! WT!! :) FROM THE EAST http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc26EFI1_nw

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Dec 1, 2008 8:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

...Hmmm. This interview with Bear exposes something previously quoted and taken as fact to be indeed, out of context. Around the time that the boards were pulled here there was a great discussion as to the authenticity and lineage of certain shows that were pulled.

"From the feedback I have had, and the tapes I have listened to, I estimate 30% or more of both audience and "board" tapes/CD's are either mislabeled or faked."

Since the quote was from a "reputable" source, it was taken as gospel that the LMA could not decipher AUD from SBD, fake from real and further couldn't take away our ear candy.


This interview and this quote were represented as being for all the shows in circulation, rather than these "rare shows" where there were multiple "shows" in one evening.

Just goes to show how deceptive "facts" can appear to be at times.

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Dec 1, 2008 3:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Again, a quote from Bill Graham himself from the book "Bill Graham Presents"...

"Usually if you've given somebody a good meal and you ask them to please leave because there are other people waiting outside, they'll go. We worked very hard to get everyone out. Twenty-three hundred out, clean the house, twenty three hundred back in. Show times were either seven-thirty and eleven-thirty, or eight and eleven-thirty. It varied. Usually, we had a half hour swing to turn the house around."

This sounds right in spite of what Owsley says in his essay. Take 2/11/70 for example, and the early show where you had Love, The Allman Brothers and The Grateful Dead. I don't know how long a set Love played but I would guess 45 minutes to an hour tops. I have the Allmans set and they played around an hour, and the Grateful Dead's early show, which is incomplete on the archive, but probably not missing very much, was around an hour or so. This adds up to around 3 hours of music on the early show. Factor in set changes and you still fit it all in within 4 hours. The 8-12 midnight early show is certainly possible in spite of Owsley's disagreement to the contrary. I know I have read interviews w/ the Allman Brothers who raved about the way the Fillmore East staff had the set changes down to a science and the equipment on rollers for fast set up.
The late show ended at day break. Phil describes it in great detail in his book.

The Dead in 1970 decided to have their own show whenever they played Fillmore that year after those February shows, providing their own opening act, the NRPS. It simplified things as far as equipment changes went since both bands used the same gear. They didn't even need to set up a new drum set since Mickey played drums for both bands. All that was needed was for the musicians to plug in. Roll the pedal steel guitar away and change the mics around and it's done. They called these evenings "An Evening With The Grateful Dead" and they were marathon shows, even the early shows. Just check out 5/15/70! Both early and late shows were epic and Jerry and Mickey in particular played the whole night with both bands! I just don't think Owsley's essay holds up as an argument. I do accept what Owsley said regarding The Dead playing "other venues" during their runs at Fillmore. There is a show that circulates as 2/12/70 Ungano's Night Club in NYC which is probably one of the "bogus" shows Owsley refers to that never happened. The 2/12/70 show is actually 2/13/70 early show Fillmore East. Even common sense would tell you that the Dead's crew would not set up at Fillmore for a three night run and move all that gear to a night club after the first night and then back to Fillmore again. Even the set list is the same as 2/13/70 early show.

This post was modified by SkyDawg on 2008-12-01 23:01:54

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 1, 2008 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Yep; BEAR, my hero (?), aside, a bunch of New York kids with tickets, and stories of being ushered out, resonates with me...I take their word at face value.

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Dec 1, 2008 5:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

beats me WT,
I wasn't seeing show in the early 70's. Perhaps bear was sampling to much of the product ? Damn man... I'm lucky if I can remember the names of half the people I called my tour family (people I travelled,ate,tripped,showered{sometimes},and saw shows with).
I tend to trust people and if someone says there were early/late shows I believe em. I did however think Bears "essay" on the matter was a side that mistah P.P. should take into consideration in his efforts to unearth the truth.
bear does seem to be throwing down the gauntlet when offering to pay anyone that can produce a so called "late/early ticket".
perhaps he has a personal issue with Dick L. and is just spouting off.. I don't know. I am sure someone does tho. perhaps someday they'll tell the whole story.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 30, 2008 6:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

i have a problem with this post -- this doesn't seem real.

let me ask You a question... have you heard of olompali, the electric kool-aid acid test, neal cassady, ron mckernan, owsley, mountain girl, the hell's angels, magoos, sam cutler, steve parrish, rex jackson, ramrod....? springfield creamery?

i am just wondering if you are a ruse or just started in on the dead a few weeks ago and you really are naively asking one of the final exam questions down at Grateful Dead High.....

people love to argue about this. i am totally ignorant but i will offer my Pure Speculation: there were some tapes labeled early and late at some 1970 shows at the fillmore(s) and other places. during this time the grateful dead were travelling with the NRPS and they frequently presented a Full NIght of Music... there would be an intermingling of players and sets.

BUT THE IMPORTANT THING and the bottom line is that there was usually only ONE ADMISSION on any given evening of music. the GD may well have played a set and then the NRPS played a set, and then the GD played another set... but usually, it was all part of the same 4-6 hours of music.

ULTIMATELY, it just DOESN'T MATTER. there ARE the tapes we have and then there are the shows for which there are no tapes -- other than the quality spectrum, what difference does it make?



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Poster: shorthopper88 Date: Dec 1, 2008 7:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

part of the purpose of this forum is for questions like these, it was a good question. please dont turn this forum into a hostile enveronment, just answer the question

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Poster: shorthopper88 Date: Dec 1, 2008 7:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

part of the purpose of this forum is for questions like these, it was a good question. please dont turn this forum into a hostile enveronment, just answer the question

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 1, 2008 12:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

BILLY WAS A MOUNTAIN!!! jus another band from l.a. 1972 !! the mother's

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Dec 1, 2008 5:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

looks like the wrong thread to me,.. or is this just another hijacking from LA?

Ethel was a tree growing off of his shoulder !

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 1, 2008 5:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

we love ya pig!!!~ its noisy at the fair!!!! http://psychedelicdd.blogspot.com/search/label/Frank%20Zappa

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Poster: pigpen_81 Date: Dec 1, 2008 7:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Thanks fer the link whirly... gotta luv FZ!

ya know,.. my python boot is too tight
I couldn’t get it off last night
A week went by, an’ now it’s july
I finally got it off
An’ my girl-friend cried
"you got stink foot! stink foot, darlin’
Your stink foot puts a hurt on my nose!
Stink foot! stink foot! I ain’t lyin’,
Can you rinse it off, d’you suppose? "

Here fido . . . fido . . .
Here fido . . . bring the slippers little puppy
Yes, that’s a good dog! yes!
"arf, arf, arf!"
[crash-crumble-bump-bump-bump]
Sick . . .

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Poster: paulypecker Date: Nov 30, 2008 7:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Sorry I'm not as well-versed as you are,YOUR HOLINESS. It seems no one is. Try reality once in a while you might enjoy that too. Why are you such a harsh person to deal with. Too many bad trips. I'm old enough and quite knowledgeable about the band. I'm also comfortable in my own skin and don't feel the need to get on people's nerves like you seem to have the uncontrollable urge to do. I'm sure you are not a young guy, so don't you think it's time to grow up? Or are you going to live your life with a chip on your shoulder? That's your choice, and only yours. Just wanted to let you know how I personally view YOUR posts-as negative,childish, and of no importance for the family of Heads that I am happily part of. I don't understand your kind and I don't really care about your views. They are pointless,arrogant and not what the world of The Dead and it's fans are all about. Keep living your little charade of a life and do as you wish,as I know you will, but there's a lot more to your life,my friend, than being rude,sarcastic, and harsh toward others. Try being nice sometime,if you are able to. I think you will find it more satisfying than causing people grief. It seems you get off on it. Whatever floats your boat. Good luck!

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 30, 2008 8:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

yea... you seem like a fake. sorry man, there are people that post on this forum under different names and are on some weird trip about the whole thing. you seem like one of those people.

as far as me and you. let it go man.... we don't know each other. i won't talk to you anymore. i don;t want to upset you....

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Poster: paulypecker Date: Nov 30, 2008 8:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

I'm a fake because I ask one simple question? WOW!!! You must really be a paranoid soul. I'll leave it at that,if you will.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Dec 2, 2008 11:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Sorry I'm not as well-versed as you are,YOUR HOLINESS. It seems no one is. Try reality once in a while you might enjoy that too. Why are you such a harsh person to deal with. Too many bad trips. I'm old enough and quite knowledgeable about the band. I'm also comfortable in my own skin and don't feel the need to get on people's nerves like you seem to have the uncontrollable urge to do. I'm sure you are not a young guy, so don't you think it's time to grow up? Or are you going to live your life with a chip on your shoulder? That's your choice, and only yours. Just wanted to let you know how I personally view YOUR posts-as negative,childish, and of no importance for the family of Heads that I am happily part of. I don't understand your kind and I don't really care about your views. They are pointless,arrogant and not what the world of The Dead and it's fans are all about. Keep living your little charade of a life and do as you wish,as I know you will, but there's a lot more to your life,my friend, than being rude,sarcastic, and harsh toward others. Try being nice sometime,if you are able to. I think you will find it more satisfying than causing people grief. It seems you get off on it. Whatever floats your boat. Good luck!

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Poster: paulypecker Date: Dec 2, 2008 11:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

You get what you give

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Poster: He Live's Date: Dec 2, 2008 11:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

what you meant to say is "you reap what you sow"

what you said is half understood moron speak... or better, you could say "if you plant ice...."

come on, i thought you wanted to play. either way.... your reply to my posting your reply is dumb. in what sense would i be getting what i gave by posting your post ...

oh better, you should have said, "DON'T EAT WHERE YOU SHIT".... i mean come on, do you need me to make fun of me for you?

This post was modified by He Live's on 2008-12-03 07:35:11

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 1, 2008 5:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

Hey Paulie, you should check out this kinder Grateful Dead Head site. The forumites there are way more knowledgable than the folks here and as you can see, the discussion there rarely strays from the music...

http://www.deadhookforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

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Poster: paulypecker Date: Dec 1, 2008 7:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

I'm "currently waiting in the queue" to be added as a member of their forum. Hope to enjoy it. By the looks of things I think I will. Thanks,man!

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Nov 30, 2008 7:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

I got this from the book "Bill Graham Presents" quoted from an Fillmore East employee.

"What they would do is still sell two shows. We would start the first show late, closer to nine p.m. so that when the second audience was arriving for the eleven-thirty show the headliner was just going on. They managed to mix both audiences. The headliner would do a nice long show and then they would have the second act on, and then close with the opening act."

There are probably some old timers here who went to Fillmore East who could tell you more. It sounds to me like there were 2 shows, separate admissions. The ticket stubs are marked with starting times varying from 7:30 and 12;00 midnight. It would make sense since the venue was small and Bill Graham wanted to put on great shows AND make a profit too! People I know who went to Fillmore always said the late show was the main show and would sometimes end at dawn.

This post was modified by SkyDawg on 2008-12-01 03:57:12

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 30, 2008 8:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

that is a rarely related fact from the dead lore.... this whole topic never gets resolved. but the part you relay from the graham book sheds some light. and i see how this entrepreneurial perspective would in some respects jibe with my bullshit assimilation --

there was more or less 4-6 continuous hours of music by a revolving band of musicians -- but the shrewd promoter managed to sell two sets of tickets. sounds about right....


THANKS! to p-pecker for getting the ball rolling on this fascinating discussion. and i apologize for being such a lousy dirt-bucket and annoying all of the people around here... especially the fake weirdos.



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Poster: squirrel barker Date: Dec 1, 2008 3:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

I never went to the Fillmore East.But I had a friend who went with his older sister a few times.He always went to an early show and had to leave after the first show, he was always surprised at the line waiting to get in at 11pm or so.I can't even remember which bands he saw.But it was two shows.Peace Love and Rock and Roll.To The Highest!

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 1, 2008 5:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

its a fillmore frank zappa 1970!!! east!!~ a mudshark baby!!!~:) http://psychedelicdd.blogspot.com/search/label/Frank%20Zappa

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 1, 2008 5:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Early Show/Late Show

1971 !!~ memories are shot!!!~:) frank n the mothers!!!